MOO log: Manovich Ch. 5
Led by Antina (msantina) and Kyle (MadHatter)
[log started Fri Apr 9 13:03:51 2004 EDT]
Participants: greg, cyn, msantina, Dave, Jeremy, Flanker39, Jody, Crista, magsmitch9, kelley, MadHatter, KT-Woodard2, Yasukage, Bradley, Julia, Roux, and Jared
Bradley turns the Bradley's recorder on.
MadHatter says, "Julia, no beating anyone up on the moo"
Jody has connected.
Flanker39 says, "F33r the l33t l<1ng"
Dave has connected.
Julia [to MadHatter]: it'll take a few more beers before I'll do that.
Bradley says, "MadHatter and msantina are leading the discussion"
Crista says, "hello dave"
magsmitch9 says, " Hey , its Jeremy's 20th Birthday today..."sing" or MOOOO in this case, Happy Birthday""
Dave says, "hello everyone"
MadHatter [to Julia]: mmm, beer
magsmitch9 says, "HI DAVE""
Jared says, "1337speak makes the baby Jesus cry, Jason."
KT-Woodard2 says, "" hey dave"
Julia says, "HAPPY BIRTHDAY JEREMY!"
MadHatter [to Julia]: no, not really
Julia [to MadHatter]: what are you talking about
Jody says, "Happy B'day, Jeremy!"
Crista says, "where is everybody else?"
Flanker39 [to Jared]: I'm Jewish, that doesn't really matter.
Bradley says, "Happy birthday jeremy"
MadHatter [to Julia]: beer bad
Jeremy says, "thanx everyone"
KT-Woodard2 says, "Happy Birthday J""
MadHatter says, "happy b-day"
Flanker39 says, "happy birthday"
msantina says, "Happy B-Day Jeremy!"
Julia [to MadHatter]: you are not a true college student
Jared [to Flanker39]: It makes the baby Moses cry too.
MadHatter [to Julia]: I just don't like the taste of it
KT-Woodard2 says, " get buck as you party for your big day J"
MadHatter [to Julia]: Long Island Ice Tea, though...
kelley has connected.
Jared [to MadHatter]: They taste better after six or seven of them.
Julia [to MadHatter]: oh you are evil....my favorite....that's why i quit drinking
magsmitch9 says, "using the Mooo to tell jeremy how to drink well....lol""
Dave says, "if a drink has more than two ingredients, its a girls drink"
msantina says, "one of the major distinctions in chapter five was the competing symbolic forms of database and narrative. "
MadHatter [to Dave]: Nyah! :P
Julia [to Dave]: you just can't handle them
Jody says, "Southern and soda"
Bradley [to MadHatter]: Let's get started
KT-Woodard2 says, "not really"
Jeremy says, "i appreciate the suggestions"
Bradley . o O ( as much as I like talking about booze )
MadHatter says, "okay, let's get goin"
Dave says, "I agree, let us begin academic discourse"
MadHatter says, "chapter five"
KT-Woodard2 says, " if a drink has been made in someone bath tub then you are crazy to drink it"
Bradley says, "Yes, database and narrative. Some good email about that"
magsmitch9 says, "lol, jerememy, lol""
Crista says, "who's supposed to provoke our discussion today?"
Dave says, "I sent an email about the human mind resembling a database on a PC, anyone with more learning than I care to comment/onnections"
Bradley [to Crista]: MadHatter (Kyle) and msantina (Antina)
Flanker39 says, "If the algorythm fails in the forrest databae, and no one is around, does it still make a blue screen of death?"
MadHatter says, "me, I thought it was interesting how Manovich talked about the use of navigable space as a labor tool"
Bradley [to MadHatter]: Yeah, got a page #?
msantina says, "The shift is more or less directed towards database. And I think it could be understood as moving from a poor information society to a rich information society."
magsmitch9 [to flanker 39] "lol"
Bradley nods at msantina.
KT-Woodard2 says, "what page is that on"
Julia says, "I found it interesting that we can consider things outside of excel or whatever we use on the computer, to be a database."
Bradley nods at Julia.
MadHatter says, "page 249"
Crista says, "is kelley in the classroom?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " thanks"
kelley says, "kelley is""
Bradley [to Julia]: Yeah, and I wonder if that's true for everyone, say, folks who don't use computers as much as we do
magsmitch9 says, "same here, julia...i dont understand where the line is drawn""
Flanker39 says, "A major part of any working enviroment is the concept of space. Per say, cubicles are meant to give a feeling of privacy (regaurdless of what actualy transpires) as people have a tendency to want autonomy in their work. A database gives us a nigh infinite amount of space to work with, it is a matter of arangement"
Jeremy says, "i don't think there is a definate line that separates what is and isn't a database"
Bradley nods at Jeremy.
Jared [to Dave]: The way I think, especially when I'm tired, does remind me of a faulty search engine. I'll think of something related to what I'm trying to focus on, then drift to something related to that, then something related to that...kind of like last night. "Manovich has interesting ideas about narrative overlaying algorithm...Alpha Centauri is a good example of this...I think I'll waste a whole lot of study time playing it some more to see if I can find something intelligent to post about on the list. Yeah.:
Jody says, "and that arrangement can be whatever we decide"
KT-Woodard2 says, " but how we arange that data and if its right "
Jeremy says, "it all depends on your interpretation"
Bradley laughs at Jared's example
magsmitch9 says, "that makes sense seeing that there isnt much of a line for antyhign else"
msantina says, "I agree with Flanker39. Space is a big part of a working environment. More space gives you more freedom."
Flanker39 says, "A databse is a file cabinet. Computers are just really, really big filing cabinets. anything you can do with a computer, can be done with a filing cabinet"
KT-Woodard2 says, " does it have its own source to go by"
Bradley says, "Certainly, Manovich's criteria that databases are ordered doesn't apply to my desk during the day. There's a line there"
MadHatter says, "manovich talks about how we use virtual space to give us walkthroughs of architectural designs and stock market performances"
Crista [to kelley]: "our mcluhan discussion is next week..."
Julia [to Bradley]: ...but can you SEE the line?
Bradley says, "and there's not much space on my desk, either. It's mostly 2D"
Yasukage has connected.
Flanker39 says, "A clean desk is a sign of an empty mind"
Julia says, "hi sean"
Yasukage says, "Hi Julia (and everyone else) sorry I'm late."
kelley [to Crista]: "we'll talk after class"
MadHatter says, "does anyone else see any other uses for navigable space?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " but sometimes we are not use to a clean desk"
Crista [to kelley]: "in MOO?
MadHatter says, "in terms of 3-D as a labor tool?"
Flanker39 says, "More importantly, though there is not much room on the desk, it is an example of orginization - the piles are chronological, and the open can of soda closest to the mouse pad is the one you're drinking, while the others are flat and from two nights ago."
kelley says, "sure""
KT-Woodard2 says, " I have to be use to a little mess inorder to find what i am looking for"
Dave says, "or in a huge pyramid like an old roommate of mine"
Bradley says, "I would like a way to better navigate my desk."
MadHatter says, "I am reminded of a discovery channel special where they used a virtual environment as a means of remote-controlling a plane in the military"
Flanker39 says, "Navagatable space allows us to stack orgization methods. It can be higher up based on time, yet aranged in alphabeticle order on a single level."
MadHatter says, "the plane fed back data to the pilot, who watched as the data turned into a virtual space representation of the area around the plane"
Jody says, "A mess similar to the one on my desk seems to take over my computer."
Bradley [to MadHatter]: That's true. And Manovich talks a lot about the way games and simulators are related.
kelley says, "a computer desk would know where you put something, or know where to look if you don't""
[ 1:14 pm ]
Bradley [to kelley]: Yeah, if I could get Google to index my desk...
MadHatter [to Bradley]: the army actually has its own online game that they use to analyze performance of players
Flanker39 says, "3d as a labor tool is already used, it temrs of creating a virtual layout of a wiring system of an aircraft, so you know the wires aren't intersected by something important like hydralic lines. The Boein 777 is the first comerical aircfart to be designed in a computer like that."
MadHatter says, "it is called America's Army, I think"
Dave says, "so, does more organised databases make the human mind more lazy?"
Jeremy [to MadHatter]: they're actually coming out with a game the military uses for training i believe
KT-Woodard2 says, " Manovich says that Computer games are experienced by thier plyaers as narratives"
msantina says, "On page 228 Manovich quoted "Regardless of whether new media objects present themselves as linear narratives, interactive narratives, databases, or something else, underneath, on the level of material organization, they are all databases." How do you take this quote?"
Flanker39 says, "The argument is that if you don't need to search for the info, then you are more likely to do the work."
Bradley [to Dave]: I dunno. I spend a lot of time organizing my computer files. My computer is neat as a button. And my web site too
kelley says, "all you'd have to do is tell that you like basketball, action movies, and need financial advice, and google could probably tell you where you missplaced your pencil""
Yasukage says, "Not lazy, more efficient imo."
Julia says, "so even the army is digitalizing basic training"
MadHatter [to Jeremy]: that's weird
Jody says, "I don't think it makes us lazy, but we end up with a lot more information to organize and file."
Bradley grins at kelley.
msantina [to Dave]: I don't think it makes the mind more lazy. Just gives it a lot more room to think and play in.
Dave [to kelley]: that was funny
MadHatter says, "I think that it doesn't make us more lazy, just more goal-oriented"
Crista says, "my computer is supposedly organized (into folders and stuff), but I still lose stuff on it"
Bradley says, "hey, if we put together what Jeremy and Antina wrote, it's interesting"
Julia [to Crista]: that's what "search" is for. :)
KT-Woodard2 says, " Is that like saying, when you pick a player to play, you become part of the story line or life line of that player"
MadHatter says, "although certain keywords can lead to bad things on the Internet"
magsmitch9 says, "my computer is supposedly organized too, however im not even sure how i did it...i just know where the folders are""
Jared says, "When I was still in the Guard, one of the training tools we used involved moving around as a squad, taking cover and stuff as we advanced on the enemy position...which was a great big screen with bad guys on it. Our M-16s had gear attached to them which basically made them Laser-Tag guns. This would be more a representation than a simulation, since we were dealing with a flat screen and moving in real space."
Jeremy says, "having something too organized can be a bad thing"
Crista [to Julia]: "if i remember what i named the file
Flanker39 says, "Theres a great quote in "zen and the art of mortorcyle repair" where the main character talks about left brain right brain people. he points out elements of heiraches, and clasical vs scientific thought. he also points out that some people can have a garage thats an absolute mess, yet know where everything is, and if you move one of their tools to a drawer, they will need to search for hours."
MadHatter says, "the internet itself is like a branching-tree database in that there are so many links to other things, yet is also like a Hierarchy in that most web pages can stand on their own in terms of content"
Bradley nods at MadHatter.
msantina says, "to Jeremy If everything is that organized, one clearly has too much time on their hands."
KT-Woodard2 says, " I have a problem with that I have a file with all my things on it on disk and some of the time the perfect way it has been organize can get hecked"
magsmitch9 says, "speaking of heirarchs, its obvious that this technology creates a heirarchy system""
Bradley [to magsmitch9]: You mean MOO?
Julia says, "the Internet is a conundrum"
Jeremy [to msantina]: good point
MadHatter says, "you can look up something and while it may not end up being what you want, the webpage itself is free from others"
Flanker39 says, "The catch with the net, is that it is not organised by time very well."
Flanker39 says, "or relevance"
KT-Woodard2 says, " is that the sytem that Bradley discuss in class"
Dave says, "I have a bad habit of randomly and somehwat subconsciously moving things. My friends hate its"
msantina says, "True. But a lot of times with web pages a lot of links all end up having the same information. Nothing is really original anymore. They mostly all us the same sources."
Bradley says, "Are databases more about hierarchy or branching tree organization?"
Dave says, "i think it is because I am trying to complete some subtle database that I see in my heading"
Jody says, "The relevance is based on the user's choice of words to search"
MadHatter [to msantina]: that is just an example of illusion
magsmitch9 says, "no, i mean some technologies in general...like im not much one for video games so some of this stuff goes way over my head....simply cuz i didnt play when i was younger...its toally an issue of exposure""
KT-Woodard2 says, "I think web pages are both in some ways"
Flanker39 says, "I don't think technology creates heirchy systmes. We had one person taking charge long ago. Even wolves and lions have the alpha males and the lesser animals. "
kelley says, "its whatever we're trying to bring to the surface""
MadHatter says, "getting the same result via different methods"
KT-Woodard2 says, " It all depends on how you look at it"
magsmitch9 says, "easy for to say when youve always been exposed""
Crista [to Dave]: "everything on my computer or in my room or wherever is organized in such a way that only I can find something
MadHatter says, "it would be like one person typing the address for a webpage while another person looks for it through Google"
Jeremy [to Crista]: organized chaos
Crista says, "if i try to explain my system to others, they just get more confused"
Bradley says, "hrm, ok Flanker, but to stick with the database and narrative question, different people have the ability to see games as narratives. But my mom couldn't see Doom in that way, I'm sure"
Jared says, "Mmm...while the concept of hierarchy certainly predates advanced technology, I think its fair to say that it does create new forms of stratification."
Crista [to Jeremy]: "yup
MadHatter says, "or different web pages that display identical content"
Flanker39 says, "Cady-wumpas. order in chaos"
MadHatter says, "in the end, it is all usually cut and paste"
MadHatter says, "people take what they want from one page and make it their own"
KT-Woodard2 says, " You have one set of sites that are repeating itself while the other set of sites that are connected take it to another level of understanding that one topic being discuss can mean many diffrant things"
Flanker39 says, "I haven't said anything about doom today."
Yasukage says, "I see databases more about branching tree organizations in terms of being more "advanced" in their usage in computers, the Internet and the world in general."
Bradley says, "there's some hierarchy there."
Jared says, "I have trouble seeing Doom as a narrative myself, to be honest. There are several excellent examples of games-as-narrative I can think of, most of which I've already posted to the mailing list about."
Yasukage says, "Bah."
Yasukage says, "You need to look harder =)"
msantina says, "I still have a problem seeing video games as narratives. Even after reading the book."
magsmitch9 says, "yeah but just because you havent talked about every technology today doesnt mean there still arent heirarchies created by those who know how and those how dont know how to use them>" "
Dave [to Jared]: just because doom is a simple narrative, does not mean it is not a narratives
Jody says, "I read once that the way your site name moves to the top of the Google list is based on the text that is contain within the web page. "
MadHatter [to msantina]: that is because most games now have little or no narrative
Yasukage says, "I think the narrative comes from after the interactivity of the game as you reconstruct experiences and formulate the narrative to custom fit your own experiences in the game."
MadHatter says, "most of the game"
Flanker39 says, "I feel like arguing that heircies are a part of life, and computers simply reinforce them now that we have the technology, but theyexisted long before computers did."
MadHatter says, "stupid keyboard!!"
Bradley says, "well, how about the other way? Can we, or are we supposed to, see games as databases?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " I found a site about games and Narratives"
Yasukage says, "We can, but we aren't supposed to."
Dave [to Bradley]: I dont think so...but Im opinionated
Yasukage says, "At least from a player's point of view."
MadHatter says, "most of the game's narrative comes from your own imagination and the game itself is usually sectioned into algorithms"
KT-Woodard2 says, "http://english.ttu.edu/kairos/7.3/coverweb/jackson/index_files/page0007.htm"
Jeremy [to Bradley]: it depends how into video games we are
Bradley shrugs at Dave. "Never stopped me."
KT-Woodard2 says, " I was looking at it the other day"
Yasukage says, "From a design standpoint, both...you have to design from a database perspective in many ways while retaining the fun involved in the narrative aspect of it."
Jared [to Dave]: If you played Doom without reading the manual or hearing about the skimpy narrative shell, would you be able to pick a narrative out of it? It's pretty much just an exploration of virtual space. Your character doesn't experience any kind of personal growth, and doesn't learn anything beyond "It hurts when demons bite me."
KT-Woodard2 says, " I think its a student project"
kelley [to Bradley]: "video games have their own algorical databases that they rely on, not so much us"
Flanker39 says, "It depends. Some games need organisation as a key componet. Comand and Conquer - a real time stratagey game - requires managing your finances, building a base, combineed arms combat of your little digital soldiers, and plananing your strategy ahaead."
msantina says, "I can see a game more as a database than a narrative. "
KT-Woodard2 says, " it has a chart that goes with it"
Dave says, "I walk down the hall, I turn left and shot the demon. I grab health and continue walking...."
Dave says, "that IS a narratives"
MadHatter says, "other games, like Resident Evil, have a specific orderly algorithm to them"
Bradley says, "Yasukage's points about design are interesting, as is Kyle's"
Yasukage says, "I agree with Dave."
magsmitch9 says, "wow, thanks KT-Woodard, that sums it up""
KT-Woodard2 says, " your welcome"
MadHatter says, "you have to obtain object a to go to room b...things like that"
[ 1:24 pm ]
msantina says, "I am not at all common with the video games being spoken of. The last video game I played and understood was Super Mario World."
Julia says, "oh my god I am so confused"
MadHatter says, "yay! Super Mario World!! "
Jody says, "Me, too."
Crista says, "me too"
Flanker39 says, "Diffrent weapons have difrent uses and diffrent creatures have diffrent tactics to take them down - you need to create a mental database of how to use what when."
Jared says, "Myst (and most other adventure games) have similar orderly algorithms. They're pretty linear, even if they don't feel that way."
msantina says, "I know I'm a little behind."
Bradley says, "Never fear. Our student leaders will lead us out of confusion!"
Julia says, "slowly, please!!"
KT-Woodard2 says, " I haven't really played games since my brother had one of those systems back in the late 80's"
Flanker39 says, "Going back to my example of C&C, an RTS needs economic and stragic planing, and your own database of what works."
MadHatter says, "you girls lack the Neerrrdd gene!"
MadHatter says, "what confuses you?"
Bradley [to MadHatter]: I call BS on the nerd gene...that's better!
Bradley grins
Julia [to MadHatter]: I'll have you know that I am a HUGE NERRRD.... I just lack the skill to read at the speed of light with one font and one size and one color
MadHatter [to Bradley]: I point and say Neerrdd!
KT-Woodard2 says, " I was more of a cards, dimino, candyland, trival person myself"
Bradley says, "Yeah, let's get the confused folks to talk about their confusion, and move forward from there"
Yasukage says, "Yes, Russian Roulette will always have a special place in my heart now that I think about it."
Jared says, "At what point did you guys get lost during the game discussion?"
MadHatter says, "yes, please."
Bradley is confused, and will be more so after 6 tonight
Jody says, "I understand that the games are narrative."
kelley says, "was candyland a database?""
Crista says, "i'm a nerd too, just can't keep up with everything"
magsmitch9 says, "i understand that too. but its an odd concept""
Yasukage says, "=)"
msantina says, "to bradley I still have a problem with choosing the difference between narrative of database of video games."
Flanker39 says, "I loved the comand and conquer games, and think they point to a hole in manoviches theorry, but there will be more on that though later"
Bradley says, "CANDYLAND!"
MadHatter says, "yes, kelley, because there were certain things you had to collect"
MadHatter says, "databases are about collecting and organizing"
Crista says, "candyland!"
magsmitch9 says, "candyland was my favorite""
Flanker39 says, "My best friend used to cheat at candyland. His father is colorblind. And a doctor of emergency medicine."
Julia says, "what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?"
msantina [to Flanker39]: Oh that is horrible!!!
MadHatter says, "that is very sad"
Bradley [to Flanker39]: That is one hell of a sad commentar
Bradley loses it
Dave says, "to everyone not here, Bradley just lost its"
KT-Woodard2 says, " soory I brought up candyland"
KT-Woodard2 says, "sorry"
Bradley straightens his tie.
MadHatter says, "shame"
Flanker39 says, "I should also point out this is the doctor thaough bought a bright orange convertable with burgandy interior."
Jared says, "That is just about the wrong-est thing I've seen in an online discussion."
MadHatter says, "no one colorblind should play color-oriented games"
kelley says, "i think database has somehow been confused with any collection of anything, which Manovich states, "it is anything but a collection of items"""
Crista says, "i thought bradley lost it last time too"
Bradley says, "This is a really good example, though"
magsmitch9 says, "yes indeed, jared""
Bradley says, "Can we think of something as simple as Candyland as a database? Or what about tic-tac-toe? "
Jared says, "I don't think Candyland is a database...There's no real navigation or order to the information. "
Julia says, "WAIT....I thought the FRIEND cheated, not the dad....was the friend colorblind?"
MadHatter says, "what about Monopoly?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " no"
Crista says, "the only thing i could think of would be the order of the spaces"
Yasukage says, "No, as I don't believe they possess the complexity to be a database."
Flanker39 says, "well, then we see in the candyland example, that the problem with databases, is that if you have some form of difficulty understanding the information, the database loses its utility."
Jared says, "Tic-tac-toe would qualify in a very limited sense, though. Wouldn't it?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " I hate Monopoly"
Crista says, "and the organization of the properties in monopoly"
Crista says, "by cost and expense and stuff"
Julia says, "chutes and ladders...if you get to a certain point you have to do a certain action"
Flanker39 says, "Dan cheated, his father is colorblind, and so didn't undertstand he was being suckered."
magsmitch9 says, "if i start thinkning of childhood, simple, games as anything nearly related to technology, I will loose it""
KT-Woodard2 says, " you always got one person who has extra money under the board"
Julia says, "oooh...he cheated against his father..."
Jeremy says, "what about hungry hungry hippos?"
kelley says, "therefore its just the rules of game that is the database, that we have to seek out in order to understand how to play the game""
MadHatter says, "something I was thinking - with the use of HCI becoming more goal-oriented, how will this affect narrative?"
MadHatter says, "will we see a reduction in the value of it?"
Bradley [to kelley]: That points to algorithm, which Manovich pairs with database, right?
KT-Woodard2 says, "my finger got caught in the hippo once, it was not a good thing"
magsmitch9 [to kelley] "that makes sense"
Flanker39 says, "And then there is the matter of when my family plays monoploy, we buy up the teritores, then refuse to sell them, so we end up in 5 hour matches of being niclkeled and dimed to death because no one owns any houses."
Yasukage says, "No, as this is already taking place and narrative is still just as strong in popular forms of entertainment."
Jared [to Yasukage]: Speaking of russian roulette...http://members.aon.at/rialskaedda.html/gimproulette.swf
msantina says, "Kelly. That is a good point. I think that makes a reference to what Manovich said on 224 about the digitizing craze in the early 1990's. People just started putting everything on the web. Steven Spielberg included. Manovich said "it would take one person 40 years to watch all the recorded material. "
magsmitch9 says, "now every game has an algorythm, one that can usually be manipulated too""
MadHatter says, "on page 228, Manovich discusses narrative, but mentions how "they are all databases""
Jared [to Yasukage]: Play it with lights down, sound up, and an empty bladder.
Yasukage says, "Thanks Jared =)"
Bradley [to msantina]: Yeah....tried to make everything into a database.
MadHatter [to magsmitch9]: that is where game modifiers come in
Crista says, "whenever anyboyd i knew played monopoly, we ended up calling it quits because nobody would actually win, we counted money and somebody won by default"
Dave says, "except when we play against another person...then the algorithm gets a little messed up"
MadHatter says, "a good example of an algorithm manipulation would be the dungeon designer in Diablo"
KT-Woodard2 says, " The new cultural algorithm on page 224 is like a food chain"
msantina says, "Madhatter So in your opinion, does this make narrative irrelevant?"
Dave [to Crista]: you didn't play properly then
KT-Woodard2 says, " and not because its written in that way"
Crista [to Dave]: "this was when the game would approach the 7 hour mark
Bradley says, "argh, Monopoly pedantry is the worst kind of pedantry"
kelley says, "but rules in a game demonstrate peoples reliance on structure and rules, which i don't classify in our topics of databases""
MadHatter says, "I think that narrative is important, but we are tending to slide more toward efficiency"
Bradley says, "Interesting. Are narratives efficient?"
Flanker39 says, "I like that coment on how humans change the algorythm. Playing a computer opponet is never the same as playing a human one."
MadHatter says, "things are appearing more and more as routine rather like an algorithm"
kelley says, "only the one in my head""
magsmitch9 says, "depends on what the narrative is intending to do""
KT-Woodard2 says, " I think so its just pretend"
Jody says, "Narratives can be efficient...and not."
[ 1:34 pm ]
KT-Woodard2 says, "fairy tales and all"
Julia says, "What is an example of an inefficient narrative?"
Flanker39 says, "The naritive is inclined to make things more interesting. If I just say that in a moo we type, its not so interiting, If I recall that in a moo I can make the professor crack up with a comment about my friend dan, it becomes more interesting."
Yasukage says, "The movie "Lost in Translation.""
kelley says, "daily decision making takes personal narration, you're looking out for #1, like your character in a video game""
Bradley [to Julia]: Good question. Let's think of one.
Julia says, "haven't seen it"
Yasukage says, "The movie "Lost in Translation" is an example of a horrible narrative."
KT-Woodard2 says, "what about video games with out narratives "
Yasukage says, "Hence the title of the movie."
Dave says, "but yet a great movies"
Bradley says, "How about Goldilocks and the Three Bears?"
Bradley . o O ( everyone knows that one! )
Julia says, "that's a narrative"
KT-Woodard2 says, " you know the games that have one simple concept and object of how to play"
Julia says, "it's not interactive"
Flanker39 says, "There is a video game called deus ex. if it you can talk to certian characters, and makeing certin choices or asking certian questions can make the game a lot easier. in this case, the naritve is key to completing the game in a concise manner."
Julia says, "but it's a narrative"
kelley says, "don't go in the bears howse" "
Dave says, "often the simplest games are the most popular. Tetris anyone?"
MadHatter [to Flanker39]: but not all games are like that anymore
Bradley says, "It's not efficient, though. Why not just get right to the baby bear's bed?"
Jeremy [to Dave]: or pong
msantina says, "Good one Dave! I do know about that game."
MadHatter says, "I miss those games"
Flanker39 says, "Tetris!"
Jody says, "Tetris is the only game we have talked about that I have actually played."
MadHatter says, "or Galaxia"
Crista says, "tetris was fun"
Julia says, "but...but...but... that would...BRADLEY I'm an English major! BLASPHEMY!"
Bradley says, "I should get the geeks to install Halflife, and we could frag for a class"
Jared [to Dave]: Would you say that Tetris is a narrative?
msantina says, "I think narratives just exaggerate things whereas databases get right to the point."
KT-Woodard2 says, "or pingball on Microsoft"
MadHatter says, "Yesss!! Fragging!!"
magsmitch9 says, "but wihtout all the in between...there wouldnt be anything intersting so I wouldnt want to get right to the bears bed....i wouldnt want it efficient in that case""
KT-Woodard2 says, "i don't think so"
Yasukage says, "What I wouldn't have given to have my high school teachers say that just once."
kelley says, "because she was hungry?""
Julia says, "tetris is a database but not a narrative?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " games like that to me do not have a storyline"
Dave [to Jared]: you could make it one, but a very abstract one..
Jared [to Bradley]: I actually think a class session of Half-life would be beneficial for the non-gamers, to give them some experience in navigating virtual space. Seriously.
KT-Woodard2 says, " it has color and blocks"
Bradley [to magsmitch9]: Yeah, the inefficiency can be cool. But at times we hate it. Like when replay or fouls cut the flow of a game
kelley says, "in tetris, you just know what you have to do""
Jody says, "I never thought of Tetris as a narrative."
MadHatter [to Jared]: that is a very good idea. Kudos
Dave [to Jody]: nor should you, but it could bear
Julia plays Half-Life...gets killed because she keeps running into the walls and shooting herself
msantina says, "I would think Tetris is a database because it really doesn't have a story line. Just a algorithm."
KT-Woodard2 says, " I think games like that are testing your brain"
Flanker39 says, "Actualy, the naritives have changed over time. Todday's games have set endings and naritves. old games like space invaders had no end, you just fought wave after wave untill you die, proving that games, like life are a futile endevor angainst everincresing odds that will hound you untill you die, and there is nothing you can do about it and no way to excape so you might as well just shoot yourself now..."
Jody says, "I agree with Jared."
MadHatter says, "Me, I just wanna frag the non-gamers"
Jeremy [to Bradley]: the best officiated game is one in which you don't know the officials are there
Crista says, "yeah, tetris was just standardized shapes and stuff"
Bradley [to Jeremy]: Breaks the narrative.
Dave says, "many people are confusing storyline with narrative"
Julia [to MadHatter]: sadist.
Jody says, "to MadHatter Thanks"
Bradley [to Dave]: Ah! Good point. Can you clear it up?
Jared says, "I'd be chasing after the experienced gamers, myself. Slow, weak prey lacks savor."
MadHatter [to Julia]: you're just mad cause I'd go after YOU
Dave says, "storyline and narrative?"
MadHatter [to Julia]: Frag!!
Dave says, "I can trying"
Julia says, "there's a difference?"
Bradley [to MadHatter]: Easy, killer
Julia begins to cry
Flanker39 says, "No I think a half life or counterstrike fest would do us all well. I mean, our final is on the web, so we meet in the lab for the final, and kill each other for 90 min. better than a written final"
KT-Woodard2 says, "don't cry"
MadHatter [to Julia]: sorry
Dave says, "storyline- a set of events and narrative that tells a storyline"
KT-Woodard2 says, " suck it up julia"
Julia [to MadHatter]:
msantina says, "what does frag mean? I know, I'm a little slow."
Dave says, "just teasing"
magsmitch9 says, "of course theres a differnce...narratie is from a personal basis or at least one point of view...and storyline focuses on the plot of the sitution not necessarily from any point of view but a generalization""
Flanker39 says, "Frag - to reduce the opponet to gibs"
Jared says, ""Frag" is a word with a long history. We use it to mean"
Julia [to KT-Woodard2]: IT'S ON
Bradley [to Dave]: Let's keep thi sdefinition going. It's an important point.
Dave says, "a narrative is simple a list of events"
Jared says, "killing the opponent's avatar in a video game."
MadHatter [to Julia]: it's always on with you
KT-Woodard2 says, "other sources that i have look up don't agree that narrvtive is apart of games"
MadHatter [to Julia]: if your coffee machine were to not work you would tell it that it's on!!
Julia says, "I still don't get it.... you're saying narrative is the story from one person's filter, and the storyline is just the whole story?"
Flanker39 says, "A story is naritve, plus discorse. In short, naritive is what happened, and when you speculate on why it happened, it is a story"
kelley says, "narrative is the voice, there doesn't have to be a structured plot line in a voice""
Bradley [to KT-Woodard2]: Email 'em to the class list; that previous link was a good one
Julia [to MadHatter]: no, I'd give it to my boyfriend and say, "fix it"
MadHatter [to Julia]: then he wouldn't be able to and you'd tell him it's on
Flanker39 says, "so eveything has a naritve in terms of somehting happening, unless your are really meditating, but that was zen, and this is tao. "
Jared says, "Gibs = tasty little chunks that remain after you kill someone with unnecessary amounts of damage. Half-life is great this way...one of the soldiers hits you with a grenade and you actually get to see your ribcage and arms hitting the ground a few feet away."
Yasukage says, "I hope we do a lan party in class, I will destroy all of you with my l33t skillz. (sorry tangent)."
Dave says, "technically that definition of story works, but story is often considered narrative with an overall plot"
Julia whimpers
Julia says, "am I really this dumb"
Jared says, "No more leetspeak! Every time you say something 1337, God kills a kitten!"
msantina says, "That was a good break down of narrative Flanker39."
MadHatter says, "most games do not have a plot - they let the action direct them"
kelley says, "narrative is who is telling the story, THE VOICE""
Crista says, "but there's some plot to them "
MadHatter [to Julia]: no, you are not dumb
Crista says, "not just action points"
Bradley [to kelley]: That's narrator
KT-Woodard2 says, "yep and i think that games do have a part the only thing is that you get to become a part of that plot"
Jeremy says, "i thought narrative was the real in-depth reason why things happen.....like what the characters are feeling emotionally and stuff"
magsmitch9 says, "yyeah i dont think weve come up with a solid definition of either becuase we are interpreting them n differnt ways and story and narrative are so similar""
Dave says, "actually most games have a plot-they are usually hidden at the beginning of the instructions and irrelevant"
Flanker39 says, "Indeed, so we have the levels to this concept. Events occuring. people speculating on why events occur, and the plot of an overall paln to the exlanation of why, and then there might be a theme, or lesson behind why you have that plot"
kelley says, "is it the same thing?""
Julia [to Bradley]: can we draw this on the board for a visual??
KT-Woodard2 says, "ture"
MadHatter says, "that is why I do not think there is much of any plot in games"
Bradley [to magsmitch9]: Agreed. And I think LNM is slippery at times here. For part of the final project, someone could discuss that.
[ 1:44 pm ]
Jared [to Dave]: Right..the narrative shell to the algorithm. But many games, like most text adventures and the better RPGs, have actual plots that you take part in and even control to a limited extent.
magsmitch9 says, "LNM??""
Dave says, "narrative vs storyline?"
MadHatter says, "example - Enter the Matrix -- bad game based on an even worse movie, the Matrix Reloaded"
KT-Woodard2 says, "yeah there is a plot but i just think that its like every other game has the same plot"
Bradley says, "database is defined pretty clearly, but narrative is not"
Jody says, "If we take the idea of the narrative, can it be applied to each person creating a narrative in a web page (as opposed to a game)??"
msantina says, "all these new games have the same plot to me. Kill, Kill, and Kill."
Bradley [to magsmitch9]: The Language of New Media
Flanker39 says, "I think there is a plot in all games, the catch is that we ignore it. we want to jump into the game rather than go thugh the concept"
KT-Woodard2 says, "needs to be new"
magsmitch9 says, "lol...ohhh, yes of course""
MadHatter [to msantina]: even mario has to kill in his games
Bradley says, "Hey, let me jump in for a few minutes here"
MadHatter says, "k"
Crista [to msantina]: "there's usually more to games than that, but not necessarily much more
Bradley thanks Antina and Kyle
Flanker39 says, "Kill is not a plat. plot is why you kill"
Julia says, "everyone shhhhh Bradley has words of wisdom"
Julia says, "(I hope)"
Flanker39 says, "You plot to kill someone, not kill to plot someone"
MadHatter says, "or cashews of knowledge"
magsmitch9 [to dave]" i think i might investigate the narrative vs plot thing.....are you gonna fight me for it or was i misinterpreting?"
KT-Woodard2 says, " the only reasone why the games seel is because the weponds being use with special powers with speical names, nothing big"
Bradley says, "I want everyone to read the assignment for the final project over the weekend"
Bradley . o O ( mmmm cashews )
Bradley says, "and post any questions to the class list"
MadHatter says, "k"
KT-Woodard2 says, " is it time to go, say it aint so"
Bradley says, "and we'll take it up on Monday: we'll meet in the MOO then as well"
Julia says, "no, sean hasn't committed seppuku yet"
Bradley says, "ALSO"
KT-Woodard2 says, "http://www.jesperjuul.dk/text/DAC%20Paper%201998.html"
msantina says, "Ao"
Bradley says, "please read the Ulmer chapter I gave you, 'cause without it part of the assignment will make your head hurt a lot"
Yasukage commits seppuku
KT-Woodard2 says, "check this out"
MadHatter says, "i actually have a question - when you want us to take a piece of writing and turn it into a hypertext, do you want us to use only images and colors to explain it, or do you want the text itself in there"
KT-Woodard2 says, " this is what other people say"
Bradley [to MadHatter]: Post that to the class list, and let's talk about it
Yasukage says, "Why will no one offer their services as a kaishaku? You guys have no understanding of honor. : P"
MadHatter [to Yasukage]: I will act as kaishaku
KT-Woodard2 says, " whats kaishaku?"
Flanker39 says, "I want to be writing the flavor text for games in the future, becasue I feel they all hav a plot and need one."
Bradley says, "The draft is due a week from Monday. So we've gotta make sure everyone is ont he same page"
kelley [to Crista]: "walk to the marina"
Yasukage says, "Kaishaku is the second, or the beheader who delivers the death blow to the seppuku performer."
Bradley [to Yasukage]: Nor asian culture
Bradley says, "All square?"
Crista [to kelley]: "i will
KT-Woodard2 says, "never mind"
kelley says, "my bad, there isn't a marina""
Dave [to Yasukage]: I know of honor, but you were unworthy
msantina says, "Gotcha."
Crista [to kelley]: "how bout open water
kelley says, "sure""
Julia says, "I'm feeling tetrahedronic"
kelley goes west.
Bradley [to Yasukage]: Naw, the students have none of asian culture
Flanker39 says, "Honor is a polite way of saying society is held together by the fact that it is harder to look a man squeare in the eye than to stab him in the back"
Crista goes west.
msantina says, "Okay. Gotta go. "
Bradley . o O ( have a good weekend, all who gotta go )
Yasukage says, "Words fail to embody the definition of the word, period."
magsmitch9 says, "dont agree wit that, honor is a personal thing not a societal thing'"
Dave says, "later everyone-have good weekends!"
msantina says, "U 2."
Jeremy says, "i gotta get going too"